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Monday, January 12, 2009

Rebuttal to Scarantino's Post "Fascism for New Mexico"

Mr. Scarantino commented on my original post about his column on the domestic partnership bill by posting a rebuttal, called "Fascism for New Mexico," on his libertarian forum. Cute title, no? Here are my return arguments to him. I post them here because I don't want to join his forum to express them there:

There is no call to censorship. There is a call for people to express their opinions to those who provide you with a platform about whether they believe your particular brand of dishonest analysis and hypocritical posing is adding something useful to the dialogue. Despite your protestations that your biases are backed by intellectual theories in ye olde tomes, and are thus harmless or at least justified, people get the gist of where you’re coming from using simple common sense.

Many of those who support the continuation of the unjust and unequal provision of civil rights left over from less educated eras cloak their prejudices in the guise of protecting some notion of Western civilization or its ideals -- just as you use your interpretation of Hayek. It’s an old trick and one easily perceived as such.

Rep. Stewart’s bill is not about same-sex couples, as you state. It is about allowing couples whether straight or gay to gain basic civil rights under civil law.

Using your odd method of analysis, I guess you could say that ANY civil rights or responsibilities granted to ANYONE necessarily impinge on the liberties of others. Just think what freedoms the prohibitions against falsely shouting “fire” in a crowded movie house take from those who love to scare people with false alarms.

What if I had what I defined as a “religious belief” that it was sinful for Italian men of a certain age to vote in presidential elections? Should my “religious belief” take precedence over the rights granted by the constitution and established law to all citizens because it would be considered a "sin" by me? If I were an election worker, should I be able to use this religious belief of mine to refuse to process you at a polling place or stop you from voting altogether?

There are rights claimed to be granted to all in our democracy that have specifically been shielded from the potentially limiting effects of religion. Yet you would have religious beliefs trumping those rights, which ideally should be granted equally and fairly to each and every citizen. Even though I am gay, the constitution tells me my rights should be equal to those of other citizens in every way, not dependent on whatever wacky religious belief becomes fashionable in any given era. You know that. You’re just pretending not to know it because you are appealing to and feeding the socially conservative beliefs of your fans in the so-called libertarian movement.

If someone is offering non-religious services in the public square, as pharmacists and health care technicians do, they cannot be allowed to interfere with the rights of citizens due to the precedence of whatever kooky religious beliefs they may have. Should we allow Christian Scientists who might work as doctors to refuse to order or perform medical procedures, like blood transfusions, with which they don’t agree on a religious basis? Where does it end?

If, as once was, a religion banned its adherents from eating meat on Fridays, should the serving of all meat and all meat consumption be prohibited in the larger culture on that day so that those whose religious beliefs preclude them from eating meat that day are accommodated? In that case, can you imagine going to a McDonald’s on a Friday and being told by the clerk working the drive-up window that he or she cannot serve you because of their religious beliefs?

Absurd, isn’t it? So is your argument, except within the cocoons of theoretical spin where real life becomes a mere abstraction -- because what you are talking about will never affect you and others who agree with you.

If we went by your suggestions, every bill would have to spell out every single instance where it did NOT apply, instead of clearly stating when it will apply and to what it will apply as Rep. Stewart’s bill surely does. As she stated, the ONLY penalty enacted would be for fraudulent claims of domestic partnership. The other dire impacts of the bill you mention exist only in your head, not in the bill.

Finally, the “freedom of expression” you whine would be taken from you if people express their opinions about you on my blog or to the media outlets that provide you a platform is just another example of crying wolf on your part. You are free to say whatever you want, but anyone who cares to do so certainly has the right to express their displeasure with what you say and/or where you are given an opportunity to say it. That’s part of the bargain when you’re featured in newspapers or on TV shows. Viewers and readers are allowed to express their opinions, good or bad. Again, you know that, but you create a false argument to distract people from the real points of the debate and impress those who agree with you. A little weak, isn’t it?

January 12, 2009 at 09:02 PM in Civil Liberties, GLBT Rights, Government, Media, NM Legislature 2009 | Permalink

Comments

Come to think of it...I saw a woman be dragged through the streets the other day..behind a cart drawn by oxen. She was seen fancying another woman. The final decision on her guilt was that she had a birth mark under her left arm pit. Her punishment: dragging through the public square, stoning, then off to the gallows to hang til death.
Sounds familiar circa 2009.

Posted by: mid-evil circa 1337 | Jan 12, 2009 9:41:58 PM

My religion tells me I should be able to walk the streets and go to work naked. Hey Jim, would you support my "right" to do that?

Posted by: bopper | Jan 12, 2009 9:47:01 PM

It's also pretty telling that anything he disagrees with is "fascism." I guess the moniker "fascism" is the new "communism" to those on the libertarian portion of the right?

Funny how one person in the libertarian movement (Jona Goldberg) writes a book about "liberal fascism" and all of a sudden it is used everywhere.

Posted by: Richard | Jan 12, 2009 10:15:11 PM

Richard, you nailed it.

I had given up defending Scarantino a long time ago. His Obama "sig heil" post was appalling. But even with that, I now realize how much I have overestimated him. I am simply floored by how intellectually dishonest his Journal piece is. This isn’t Hayek, the “Nobel laureate.” It's Goldberg. All Scarantino did was a book report on Jonah Goldberg’s “Liberal Fascism” – which he does not cite or attribute. This isn’t just drivel, it’s unoriginal drivel.

And what impulse prompted Goldberg's “Secret History”? From page 392:

“Ever since I joined the public conversation as a conservative writer, I’ve been called a fascist and a Nazi by smug, liberal know-nothings… Responding to this slander is, as a point of personal privilege alone, a worthwhile endeavor.”

Oh boo hoo! Poor Jonah. Somebody victimized him by calling him names.

The outfit that Scarantino works for, The Rio Grande Foundation, was all gaa gaa over Goldberg a couple of months ago when they brought him to Albuquerque. Apparently, Jim was starstruck.
https://www.riograndefoundation.org/gallery/jonahgoldbergaddressesseptember192008breakfastmeetinginalbuquerque.html

Here’s an example of Goldberg’s extensive research into the "secret" fascist underpinnings of liberal doctrine:

“Scott Lively and Kevin Abrams write in ‘The Pink Swastika’ that ‘the National Socialist revolution and the Nazi Party were animated and dominated by militaristic homosexuals, pederasts, pornographers, and sadomasochists.’ This is surely an overstatement. But it is nonetheless true that the artistic and literary movements that provided the oxygen for Nazism before 1933 were chockablock with homosexual liberationist tracts, clubs, and journals.” (page 378)

Oh yeah. The Nazi pro-homosexual agenda. But according to the U.S. Holocaust Museum, the Nazis arrested more than 100,00 men for the “crime” of homosexuality. Approximately 50,000 served prison terms as convicted homosexuals. Thousands more were sent to concentration camps.

Here’s another penetrating “discovery” uncovered by Goldberg under the heading, “The Nazi Cult of the Organic”:

“Consider two spheres of concern that dominate vast swaths of our (liberal) culture today: food and health. The Nazis took food very, very seriously. Hitler claimed to be a dedicated vegetarian. Indeed, he could talk for hours about the advantages of a meatless diet and the imperative to eat whole grains.”

Yes, very seriously… guilt by association – this time with vegetarians no less. I've noticed a lot of goose steppers over at La Montanita lately.

It should be noted that the original subtitle for Goldberg’s book was to have been “The Totalitarian Temptation from Mussolini to Whole Foods.” Then, before settling on “The Secret History”, he considered using “…from Mussolini to Hillary Clinton.”

Goldberg is an intellectual clown of the far right, jealous of Ann Coulter’s book sales. Scarantino merely channels him without attribution. Yes, it is a sad commentary that the Albuquerque Journal and KNME-TV give a soapbox to these lightweight hate peddlers.

Posted by: luis | Jan 12, 2009 11:58:19 PM

luis, your take down is immaculate. Bravo.

Posted by: Jude | Jan 13, 2009 12:24:40 AM

If we went by your suggestions, every bill would have to spell out every single instance where it did NOT apply, instead of clearly stating when it will apply and to what it will apply as Rep. Stewart’s bill surely does. As she stated, the ONLY penalty enacted would be for fraudulent claims of domestic partnership. The other dire impacts of the bill you mention exist only in your head, not in the bill.

Posted by: Suzi Orman | Jan 13, 2009 3:07:17 AM

It would be proper to define all marriage as "civil union" for the purpose of civil rights.

If people choose to be married in a church for the purpose of having their union sanctioned by the "God" and tenets of their chosen religion, fine.

But the marriage certificate presented for legal purposes to the State need not have anything whatsoever to do with any religion or the practices of it. Nor should the beliefs of these religions that contradict each other or exclude each other from "heavenly rewards" have any effect whatsoever on the practice of civil rights or in the courts of the State.

The Golden Rule is a good starting point for the law.

Since there are so many who cannot live by the Golden Rule, we have other rules to say what is not allowed.

Civil Rights would seem to fall under The Golden Rule.

Posted by: bg | Jan 13, 2009 7:57:01 AM

I don't really think its fair to pretend that people like Jonah Goldberg and to a lesser degree Jim Scaratino are libertarians (whether capital L or not). Jonah Goldberg is simply a Neocon and nothing more. He's never argued an actual libertarian standpoint that I'm aware of.

Scaratino has had brief flirtations with libertarianism (he jumped on the anti-war bandwagon along with the middle third of the country when feces started hitting the fan in Iraq) but most of his ideology is indistinguishable from the GOP mainstream.

99% percent of libertarians are in favor of either removing government from marriage altogether or giving homosexuals the same marriage rights as anyone else.

Posted by: Dan | Jan 13, 2009 9:01:08 AM

Dan is right but Goldberg and Scarantino call themselves libertarians. I call them both liars and fakers who use the libertarian arguments when it suits them and ignore them at other times like Dan says.

Posted by: Jude | Jan 13, 2009 10:07:15 AM

Now Scarantino is claiming he was "hit" by my posts anonymously. Like he doesn't know who writes this blog. Here's what it says in the About DFNM link at the top left of the blog page:

"This blog is owned, managed and written by Barbara Wold. Opinions expressed are entirely her own and may or may not represent the opinions of members of the DFA-Democracy for New Mexico Meetup group, which is an independent entity."

Grasping at straws, isn't he?

Posted by: barb | Jan 13, 2009 10:40:43 AM

One does get the impression that Jim S. is slipping into some bizarro parallel universe where Barb Wold is "anonymous", liberals are fascists, and guys like himself are victims. But of course that's precisely Jonah Goldberg's mindset too. Irony is not dead. I can't get over the fact that Goldberg is editor-at-large for a magazine, the National Review, that carried weepy tributes to Francisco Franco -- a real fascist -- when he died. It's the same rag that fired, Chris Buckley, the son of NR's founder (William F.), for endorsing Obama.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-14/sorry-dad-i-was-fired

Posted by: luis | Jan 13, 2009 12:28:28 PM

It's worth wondering why any governmental entity [typically a state, though] has any right to specify the conditions under which any two people may 'marry'. All such laws are wrapped up in tradition, of course, but, really, if you want to get married, go to your priest (or minister, or Rabbi, or imam, or whatever) and get married. Then proceed to some attorney and get your rights specified with a contract. Other than enforcing the rights of the contract, what should the state have to do with it?

Posted by: Henry Bowman | Jan 13, 2009 6:52:38 PM